Rhetolympics

In my own tiny efforts to be more involved in Men's Rights Issues, I decided to really sharpen my debating skills. I love RazorBladeKandy's sharp and biting wit when he successfully pawns his victims and I realize that - as Paul Elam described it - we need cultural soldiers. Feminists have their "Victim Olympics" and I see that the one thing MRA's, MHRM and MGTOW's have got going for them is their fine Rhetoric and we can win in the "Rhetoric Olympics" against women. They have their shaming and guilting tactics; what we have is our ridicule and takedown barrage.

Hence, I thought I'd post the stuff that I write here and share and maybe get some critique and advise and improvements from you guys. My dream one day is that if I ever meet someone like FemiTheist Divine, I could ridicule her like GWW and RBK did.

This is a comment by jennyhesperus in manwomanmyth's video about feminism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkVWz0uXiEA

jennyhesperus wrote:Feminism is the assertion that women deserve human rights of the same level that men already have. That's it!!! In the same way that tall people aren't of less value than short people and people of colour aren't of less value than their paler brethren and young people aren't of less value than old people, so too women are not of less value than men. Women are also not better than men!! If you are getting a different message you are not dealing with true feminism! Women get to vote, get equal pay for work of equal value and equal rights and opportunities under the law. Feminism is not about trying to turn apples into oranges or vice versa. The differences between women and men are obvious to all - we are different at a genetic level, but we are all of the same value. Feminists are not all man-bashers any more than all Christians are staking out funerals with the Westboro Baptist Church. Your mistake is dealing with extremism as the norm - you have misunderstood the genuine objectives of feminism. True feminists wish to point out issues of inequality, they are not interested in offensive "all men are stupid brutes and all women are secretly in control" humour.
The notion that women were better off prior to feminism is so deluded it's embarrassing. Women could certainly live a happy life prior to feminism and many did, but if you weren't interested in the path of virgin - wife - mother/homemaker (and perhaps teacher/nurse/secretary) you were most often treated with disdain or at the very least derision.
By stating that he is not a feminist, a man is either ignorant of feminism or he is asserting that women are his inferior and deserve less from life. We are still in a time of upheaval and unbalance, but with time things will normalize and women will be recognized as equal in value to men in the same way as a person from Ireland is of equal value to a person from England or a person from the city is of equal value to a country-dweller. Strong confident masculine men want women at their side, not a few paces behind them! If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but kindly get out of the way. You are on the wrong side of history.

My reply

Kyojiro Kagenuma wrote:Gentlemen, this is the kind of enemy we face right there

+jennyhesperus said -   - "...but if you weren't interested in the path of virgin - wife - mother/homemaker (and perhaps teacher/nurse/secretary) you were most often treated with disdain or at the very least derision."  

Any proof of this? Did you live between 1930's to 1960's? Do you know anyone who thought that mothers, homemakers (and perhaps teachers, nurses, secretaries) are disdainful careers (other than feminists and apparently you since you describe these jobs as "path of virgin")? Do you think every man, woman and child derided their mothers for being a homemaker? I know you hate your mother but please leave personal emotions out of this.

- "Women get to vote, get equal pay for work of equal value and equal rights and opportunities under the law. "

We have no problem with this. But with Equal Opportunities and Rights must come with Equal Obligation and Equal Accountability. Are you willing to go to war and die for country? Are you willing to work 60 or more hours a week to financially support your husband and children? I didn't think you would. Show me a woman in the western world who does this and is happy with her life; I can show you examples of many women who aren't.

- "Feminism is the assertion that women deserve human rights of the same level that men already have."

No, that would be Humanism. Feminism means women's interest, not even women's rights. "ism" means ideology and Feminism is an ideology of the female. See, I can play semantics too.

- "By stating that he is not a feminist, a man is either ignorant of feminism or he is asserting that women are his inferior and deserve less from life"

I was trying to take your comments seriously until I read this... and then I realized that I'm dealing with another fanatical idiot. By your own stupid logic, if a woman claims she is not an artist, then the woman is either ignorant of art or she is asserting that artists are her inferior and deserves less from life. That is how stupid you sound.

And if you don't agree that you are stupid, I'm sorry but go fuck yourself. We are making history here. 

Offend them subtly, not overtly. If you do it so obviously, they'll simply deride that, perhaps justifiably. The enemy will start the name-calling, and thereby she will also lose the game.

Ancient Sunlight wrote:
Offend them subtly, not overtly. If you do it so obviously, they'll simply deride that, perhaps justifiably. The enemy will start the name-calling, and thereby she will also lose the game.

yeah, it was obvious wasn't it? I have low tolerance for fanaticism. Thanks man

This is how I would answer her post:

jennyhesperus wrote:Feminism is the assertion that women deserve human rights of the same level that men already have. That's it!!!

If that´s all feminism is about, the job is already done and we don´t need feminism anymore.

jennyhesperus wrote:In the same way that tall people aren't of less value than short people and people of colour aren't of less value than their paler brethren and young people aren't of less value than old people, so too women are not of less value than men. 

Tell this to the large number of women who want a man who is taller then them. Or to women who won´t date black/asien/caucasian men in general. You are telling me that al human beings have value. Tell that to all those women who value men by very superficial standards.

jennyhesperus wrote:Women are also not better than men!!

I agree but I wonder why feminists always tell us that women can do everything men can do...and can do it better and in high-heels?

jennyhesperus wrote:If you are getting a different message you are not dealing with true feminism!

Ah, the "not a true scotsman" fallacy.

jennyhesperus wrote:Women get to vote, get equal pay for work of equal value and equal rights and opportunities under the law.

I agree, they do get all those things. So why do we need feminism?

jennyhesperus wrote:we are different at a genetic level, but we are all of the same value.

No we are not. You have value if you contribute something to society...unless we are talking about the overall value of a human life, which is a pretty pointless argument.

jennyhesperus wrote:Feminists are not all man-bashers any more than all Christians are staking out funerals with the Westboro Baptist Church.

If there would be only as few crazy feminists as crazy Westboro Baptist Church members I would shut my mouth and never criticize feminism again.

jennyhesperus wrote:Your mistake is dealing with extremism as the norm - you have misunderstood the genuine objectives of feminism

Again the "not a true scotsman" fallacy. It´s strange that whenever somebody points out a certain problem with feminism, feminist will tell you that "this is not real feminism!"

jennyhesperus wrote:True feminists wish to point out issues of inequality

I am very happy to talk about inequlity. Shall we start with women quotas or shelters for women but not for men? Or male circumcission? Or marriage laws and family court?

jennyhesperus wrote:they are not interested in offensive "all men are stupid brutes and all women are secretly in control" humour. 

If that is the case, I wonder why we see sitcoms on TV and movies where men get slapped by women or kicked in the balls by women on a regular basis. Or commercials that tell men to stop raping women. Or movies that show tiny women who easily and brutally beat up huge muscular men.

jennyhesperus wrote:The notion that women were better off prior to feminism is so deluded it's embarrassing.

So you think that a divorce rate of 50% and a lot of children growing up without a father is something that makes women feel better...interesting.

jennyhesperus wrote:if you weren't interested in the path of virgin - wife - mother/homemaker (and perhaps teacher/nurse/secretary) you were most often treated with disdain or at the very least derision. 

And if a man in todays western society isn´t interested in being a father and the breadwinner for the family you are told by women that you are not a "real man". And men who are virgins are often humilated by women who tell them that they are "losers who can´t get laid!".

jennyhesperus wrote:By stating that he is not a feminist, a man is either ignorant of feminism or he is asserting that women are his inferior and deserve less from life.

A man who states that he is not a feminist does that, BECAUSE he knows what feminism REALLY means. BTW: Playing the victim and saying that women are hated and oppressed by men is one of the tools and privileges women use to manipulate men and the public opinion. If a man does the same, he will be ridiculed and told to "MAN UP!"

jennyhesperus wrote:We are still in a time of upheaval and unbalance

Yes, there is an unbalance in our society in favor of women. And there is an upheaval of men who are not willing to accept that anymore.

jennyhesperus wrote:Strong confident masculine men want women at their side...

Another shaming tactic. "If you don´t do as I say, you are not a real man!". It´s getting old. Can´t you ladies come up with something new?

jennyhesperus wrote:If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but kindly get out of the way. You are on the wrong side of history.

Hint: History was hugely influenced by MEN! Men who died on battlefields to fight for the rights that were given to you FOR FREE! Enjoy Your privilge. We don´t expect a "Thank you". You are welcome.

Beautiful job of fisking, GabrielKnight.

"No True Feminist" sounds like "No True Scotsman" from here!

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. I can appreciate using restraint in flaming. I can also appreciate the need to call someone on their stupidity and naivety. It's really a hard balance, anyway,

I was watching Manwomanmyth's really great videos on Equality (link below) and I passed a commenter who is so indoctrinated by the Gynocracy that he appears to be aware of the differences in men and women but justifies it by the age old saying "Well of course, they're women so they get a pussy pass. We're men so we need to Man Up!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S7v4fuguHI

This person didn't have a lot of good points, instead, his entire argument amounted to a simple pussy pass and man up. He didn't really argue what was wrong with the video in question or debate the points manwomanmyth was trying to get across. This type of people are ignorant, not stupid and I realize that and I decided to use diplomacy instead of ridicule, hoping that he would see sense.

Michael Myers wrote:this mans arguments have a lot of holes. he's simply looked at the situation from a male biased point of view. take one for example - when he said "men are obligated to fight whereas women are not" omg!! u only have to use ur brain to figure out why. not discrimination, its simply because men are physically fit. where as woman have to give birth/ raise her children, u cant have both parents being called out to fight at the same time, just wont work!
no one gender has all the dominance. there are problems on both sides. these feminists and men rights movement just add to the hate and the problems rather then being the solution. they simply teach violence, hate, biasing and aggression in there own genders. which I don't think is the answer.  

My Reply

Kyojiro Kagenuma wrote:Please allow me to explain good sir.
- "not discrimination, its simply because men are physically fit. where as woman have to give birth/ raise her children, u cant have both parents being called out to fight at the same time, just wont work!"

This is correct, however, women in various services and employment are asking for equal pay for not doing the same work i.e. women in the military do not need to go to the frontline, policewomen do not need to be front in a riot but hide in the backs of policemen, women firefighters are not obligated to rush into a burning building to save anyone (9/11) and yet they want the same pay, work less hours, have kids, have maternity leave, get paid for maternity leave, have a husband who earns more than she, the same man who is competing with another woman in the same profession getting equal pay while working less hours for it.

We are not saying men should get more pay because we're men, but anyone who works more hours, produces more, takes more risk (especially when it involves their lives and limbs) should get more reward than the other person who is not putting in the same effort.

- "no one gender has all the dominance. there are problems on both sides. these feminists and men rights movement just add to the hate and the problems rather then being the solution. they simply teach violence, hate, biasing and aggression in there own genders. which I don't think is the answer."

Well now, I won't disagree on calling Feminism a hate movement, but look at the Men's Right's Movements and really listen to what they're saying. We are saying that the Marriage laws, Alimony, Child custody laws, Domestic Violence, Rape laws are all unfair towards men. Innocent men are being falsely accused and there are growing instances where they were vilified and incarcerated with no evidence except from the sole testimony of the accuser such as Brian Banks, Duke Lacrosse Team.

And really look at who is calling the MRM a hate group, i.e. the Feminists. They are saying that because we criticize them for their wrongdoing and they have done much harm such the case of Earl Silverman in Canada. MRA's are being vocal and harsh because only then the public, the layperson such as yourself sir, really do hear us and what we're doing. Please be aware, we're fighting for you and we're not asking anyone to hate women, instead, all we asked is for your ear and simply listen to everything we have to say. There is no harm in just talking. 

I have here a comment that I'd like to share. I'm going to put off replying to it until tomorrow but I would like some of your thoughts on it. Tomorrow I'll edit this comment and put in my reply; hopefully I can put in a thoughtful response.

Libertine DeSade wrote:Women and children" um... that's just as sexist towards women as it is against men. Why are we always lumped into the weaker groups? When women want to fight nd join the military their either barred from being on the front lines, by MEN, or raped for simply existing, by MEN or treated like second class citizens for stepping out of their designated roles.

You upset over shit that was born of sexism towards women. Now men are feeling the brunt of it and somehow it's our fault? These rules aren't enforced by women, they're enforced by the MEN in the ruling class.

I'm not saying it's right to mistreat men, by no means. But you guys who are always whiny and complaining need to take a step back and look at the sources for a lot of these problems. There's a whole history to all of this, that goes all the way back to ancient times.

Up until about 20 years ago women were second class, right there with the children. We could do the same work as you, like trash collector, we couldn't have the same roles in the military, we didn't have the same reproductive rights, etc. And now that men are baring a lot of the brunt from these things, it's somehow our fault. Unbelievable.

Funny this is, I'm not even a feminist. not in the current sense anyway. But this shit really blows my mind.

Sure - let me have a try.

Libertine DeSade wrote:Women and children" um... that's just as sexist towards women as it is against men.

Look at the classic use of it - "Women and children first." Meaning, get the women and children to safety and let the men take their chances.

Why are we always lumped into the weaker groups?

Erm ... maybe because women are weaker - the average man has 37% more muscle mass than the average woman.

When women want to fight nd join the military their either barred from being on the front lines, by MEN ...

By men being stronger than women? Or by men being protective of women? Maybe both?

or raped for simply existing, by MEN ...

Oh, come on now. This is like Godwin's Law.

or treated like second class citizens for stepping out of their designated roles.

You, and women in general, have been swimming in protection and privilege all your lives, and you can't even see it. You've been put on a pedestal and you call it unfair. Unfair to whom?

You upset over shit that was born of sexism towards women. Now men are feeling the brunt of it and somehow it's our fault? These rules aren't enforced by women, they're enforced by the MEN in the ruling class.

Correct. And I don't blame women for taking advantage of protection and privilege. I blame the white-knights who passed and enforce the laws that make women so much "more equal than" men.

I'm not saying it's right to mistreat men, by no means. But you guys who are always whiny and complaining need to take a step back and look at the sources for a lot of these problems. There's a whole history to all of this, that goes all the way back to ancient times.

That history is correct, too. Since time immemorial women have been cherished, pampered and protected just for being women. Men, on the other hand, have always had to work for a living, and step up to protect "those precious vessels of femininity." And now, you want to be paid for shoveling the gravel, without shoveling the gravel, while leaving shoveling the gravel to the "whiny and complaining" men who get the job done.

Up until about 20 years ago women were second class, right there with the children. We could do the same work as you, like trash collector ...

You actually want to be a trash collector? C'mon now.

we couldn't have the same roles in the military...

Like fighting and dying in the trenches of WWI, going almost straight from grammar school to the grave, to avoid being shamed by some random "precious vessel of femininity" and told, "You're not a real man."

we didn't have the same reproductive rights, etc.

Women have always been the only sex that had "reproductive rights." Oh, wait, this goes back to your "rape culture" meme.

And now that men are baring a lot of the brunt from these things, it's somehow our fault. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable is that you want all the privileges you say men have, and all the privileges women have always had, and to place all the responsibility and blame and labor on the shoulders of the men.

Funny this is, I'm not even a feminist. not in the current sense anyway. But this shit really blows my mind.

Blows your emotions, you mean.

@BeijaFlor

God damn it. It's perfect. It's informative and condescending at the same time. I think I'll use this and credit your name.

Edit: LoL I couldn't find the comment anymore. Still love this one, thanks BeijaFlor.

I love it. I never get tired of seeing logic used to dissect and dismantle hamster logic and the scourge of feminism.

Historically it has been proven that logic is the complete polar opposite of feminism.

What would it take for feminists to be happy? Anybody want to wager a bet on that? No.

Feminists will never be happy, content, or admit to achieving their goals. Even if they did get everything they supposedly wanted, they'll just be screaming for something else. And blaming someone for their never-ending oppression.

I love RazorBladeKandy's sharp and biting wit when he successfully pawns his victims and I realize that - as Paul Elam described it - we need cultural soldiers.

Yes. We will talk about this more in the Action sub-forum on the new site (coming soon).